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Hey @simplex is this really your founder? 👀
xcancel.com/epoberezkin

#SimpleX #InfoSec

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in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

Yep, also see: wired.com/story/neo-nazis-flee… :P

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in reply to Tris

@triskelion
You really have to quote this:

"Neo-Nazis Are Fleeing Telegram for Encrypted App SimpleX Chat
Neo-Nazis are joining SimpleX Chat, a relatively unknown app that received funding from Jack Dorsey and promises users there is no way for it or law enforcement to track their identity."

Jack Dorsey is involved, so of course there are neonazis and security is non-existent.

@Tris
in reply to Parade du Grotesque 💀

@ParadeGrotesque

@triskelion @rysiek

If brown-shirts go to a certain app says nothing about the goals of the app/project itself, in my opinion. But reading such stuff from and about the founder should make you think twice (or more).

in reply to Tris

@triskelion yeah I am looking at @cwtch with a lot of hope.

I've been using @briar for a while, but it's really difficult to get people onto it.

@powersource @signalapp

in reply to Powersource

@triskelion nvm first step of opening cwtch is to fill in two different usernames (with explanation text that cuts off) and a password for some reason. I'm not gonna figure that all out and try to remember it 🥲
@Tris
in reply to Powersource

@powersource @triskelion Has anyone tried Veilid Chat yet?

veilid.com/chat/

in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

The #SimpleX brand account also promotes right wing slop, retweets posts from right wing accounts, and "love[s] Twitter and the role it plays in the world."

It's not at all disconnected from the project itself. This defending of right wing bullshit under the guise of "defending free speech" appears to be inherent to SimpleX's philosophy. Of course, people will screech about "keep politicks out oaf mah softwayre!!"

Evgeny also retweets Lunduke lol.

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to Molytov

@molytov why do these people keep thinking they’ll be welcome here lmao
in reply to Andrew

@cinebox They keep being welcomed by people who insist that "we should keep politics out of software" while never acknowledging the role of their own politics in the software they make and use.
in reply to Molytov

@molytov we retweet what we agree with, without dividing people to those who we like or not. Post stuff on X that we agree with, and we would retweet you too.

Regardless of politics and our views on society we all have a common enemy with the goal to take away our rights and liberties. The hate and divide you are spreading shows that you fell prey to this enemy, sadly.

Stay safe. Of all people you should not spread hate.

in reply to SimpleX Chat

in that case:

trans rights are human rights :transgender:

Is that something you agree with and would boost here, and retweet on Xitter?

@molytov

Unknown parent

@mc I have not tried either, but I looked into Veilid a bit, and I kinda like the approach.

@powersource @triskelion

in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

I'm conflicted here, I like Simplex Chat as a software and what it provides - a unique hybrid approach that takes good elements from both peer to peer and server client models to come up with a usable private messaging system. But I don't want to be part of a community that promotes these politics. I think Simplex Chat as a project should come up with its own political values what standards its community members can expect.
in reply to Pirate Praveen

@praveen the way I think about that is that there are other tools, like @cwtch, that are in a similar space and provide similar functionality – or are working towards it.

Instead of supporting SimpleX, whose founder seems to be a far-right libertarian conspiracy wingnut, I choose to spend my attention and time on tools that do not come with that kind of baggage.

Because we both know SimpleX will never get any functionality that would in any way impede the far-right libertarian wingnuts.

in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@cwtch I think the thought of identifying and stopping users we don't like is a slippery slope. The same thing could be used by governments to stop dissidents. So I think as a technology unable to distinguish and stop users of any political belief or philosophy is important for privacy of people who need it the most. It'd be a shame if we have to give on such a great technology because of the politics of its founder. I think a fork or adopting the protocol in other products is better.
in reply to Pirate Praveen

@praveen nobody said anything about identifying them. Stopping them – that depends on the specifics of what's going on.

If a tool is algorithmically promoting content, for example, and happens to reliably promote Nazi content, that's a problem that needs to be solved – or a tool that needs to be ditched.

All technology is political. One might think they're building a "truly neutral" tool, but no such tool exists. Choices made by it will define how it fits into the broader struggle.

@cwtch

in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@praveen so instead of wasting time on trying to save "such great technology", I choose to promote others building similar tools that happen to not be conspiracy wingnuts and transphobes.

This way not only we get the amazing technology, but we also promote people who can build it in ethical, thoughtful, considerate way.

"Great technology" built by shitty people is sucking the air out of the room. I will not be helping with that.

@cwtch

in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@cwtch I will also evaluate other options, but I don't think giving up on Simplex Chat protocol is not the only options we have as Simplex Chat is still Free Software. All other peer to peer options I have evaluated so far move far away from traditional server client model and it will take time to mature. But I feel the balance Simplex Chat strikes makes it possible to use it today without all the drawbacks of both traditional server client and peer to peer options.
in reply to Pirate Praveen

@praveen

> I would understand that concern for something like mastodon where algorithm pushing ideas are important factor. But how is that relevant for something like Simplex Chat?

Here:
hachyderm.io/@dalias/114630690…

@cwtch


Folks have taken exception in the past with my claim that SimpleX is "run by nazis".

I base that on the fact that it presents popular/recommended "rooms" as part of the UX, and a bunch of those are nazi shit.

No, "that's just algorithmic outside their control" is not an excuse. If you're publishing an app and find it in any way promoting nazi shit, especially to someone who didn't actually seek that out, and you're not a nazi, that's a maximum-priority bug to be fixed. By removing the recommendations entirely if nothing else.

If you're ok with it being there, you're fucking nazis.

SimpleX is fucking nazis.


in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@cwtch thanks for sharing that. I agree that is bad. But being Free Software, we don't have to accept that. This is not the first time such a thing happened to Free Software. Malicious or privacy invasive features do get into Free Software sometimes. Some examples are Ubuntu once shared search data with Amazon by default. Mozilla made some shitty ToS changes etc. We responded by removing such features in derivatives / forks etc.
in reply to Pirate Praveen

@praveen and I agree code can be forked and worked on independently of whoever created it initially.

However, I don't see anyone wanting to do that. But I do see @cwtch creating a similar tool in an ethical matter. So I am going to support them instead.

in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@cwtch first step in creating the fork is calling out what is bad and I hope someone will create a fork eventually when more people know about the problem. I hope to include Simplex Protocol into @prav xmpp app. Though it will depend on how Prav community will respond to the proposal. We also have to evaluate this compared with all other feautures we want to implement in Prav. We want a way to have less metadata collected but don't want to give up on onboarding and contact discovery.
in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@cwtch does cwtch needs both / all parties online at the same time to exchange messages? Briar used to be like that (I think they were planning to instrouce an inbox but not sure if it is implemented already). Being able to send messages even if one person is offline is a crucial feature.
in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@cwtch I would understand that concern for something like mastodon where algorithm pushing ideas are important factor. But how is that relevant for something like Simplex Chat? Where the platform or admins have no such role. Free Software is not about binary take it or leave it. Developers don't have that kind of influence on Free Software like proprietary software. Like I mentioned earlier forking or reimplmenting the protocol by good people are still options.
in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

@cwtch can you show any proof that Simplex Chat is algorithmically promoting such ideas? What they promote on their social media is different (I don't disagree that is bad, but these two are separate issues and it is best we analyze different issues separately than trying to conflate many issues together).
in reply to Pirate Praveen

@praveen you'd have to ask the author of that toot; they are usually solid in my experience, and I trust what they have to say.

I just finished a pretty deep technical investigation into Telegram's protocol, and I simply do not have the spoons to do a deep-dive into SimpleX, sorry. Take it or leave it.

@cwtch

in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

It's been a few days, and while @simplex found the time and inclination to respond in the thread by accusing those who documented sus stuff their Xitter account RT'd of "hate" …

…somehow they never got around to either confirming or denying that this is their founder:
xcancel.com/epoberezkin

Are his views (transphobia/transmisia, climate denial, anti-immigration, anti-vaxx, looking at just a few first tweets) a bit too much?.. :blobcatcofesip:

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

"we retweet what we agree with"

well there's the problem right there

these right wing guys really want to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to sharing their odious opinions and still having everyone want to associate with them

like personally if I had my own company and decided to use it as a platform to air my political views and people said they didn't want to buy my product because of that I'd say "good don't let the door hit you on the way out" but I'm different I guess

This entry was edited (3 days ago)
in reply to Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

I use simplex because it has good features.
Reading what its alleged founder writes on X gives me the shivers.
He seems to support the fascist MAGA and reposts the weirdest ideas about "the left"

Oh boy.