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They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.🀑

The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.πŸ€·πŸΏβ€β™‚οΈ

The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."

It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.🀑"

in reply to mekka okereke

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Fishercat

I agree that the solve for marginalized communities getting squeezed out of public goods is to address that racism. I also think there are ways to put marginalized communities at the head of the line. Because there will be a line.

It looks like they selected the neighborhoods where the first few childcare slots are going in based on child poverty levels and lack of childcare access. That seems exactly right to me. If there are some wealthy parents in that net, fine. Their kids' buddies won't be.

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in reply to mekka okereke

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Woozle Hypertwin

The "but then rich people get more of it" argument consistently feels like concern-trolling designed to provide an excuse to clamp down on means-testing, which of course makes the problem worse because rich people always have ways to get around bureaucratic obstacles.

(cf. buying a second house in another school-zone so you don't have to send your kids to the "bad" (underfunded) school.)

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in reply to mekka okereke

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mhoye

one of the core lessons of public health is that bureaucracy is _expensive_. The entire β€œWho should pay what!?” Exercise slows the systems down and costs a ton of money and basically all it produces is spreadsheets that cruel selfish people use to be cruel and selfish, and that crowd can’t wrap their heads around the fact that the other thing that’s great about public services being public services is that it’s cheaper.

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in reply to mekka okereke

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Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.

Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.

We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.

in reply to Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

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Raymond Russell

@realtegan
My pet hate.
When you start to "means test" something that really should be universal the means test itself costs money to administer and you create a barrier to some of those who should be benefiting but may not be able to navigate the red tape required for many many reasons.
@Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
in reply to Raymond Russell

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Eric Lawton

@raymierussell

πŸ’―
And we already have the right machinery to recover the money from those who don't need it: it's called the tax system. Fox that instead of introducing program-by-program assessments.

@realtegan @mekkaokereke @bonaventuresoft

@mekka okereke @Bonaventure Software πŸ‡¨πŸ‡¦ @Raymond Russell @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
in reply to Raymond Russell

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craignicol

@raymierussell @realtegan in Scotland we used to means test prescriptions. It turned out that the money saved couldn't possibly justify the cost of administration (mainly because people on many prescriptions are highly likely to be unable to work) so they just made them free for everyone.

That's how most benefits should work. Although I do have some sympathy for the idea the UK has where everyone gets child benefit but higher rate taxpayers who get it pay more tax.

@Raymond Russell @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
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Raymond Russell

@craignicol @realtegan
Yup I have benefited from free prescriptions in Scotland.

Another side effect of free prescription is better compliance with taking medication.
When you need to fork out a tenner per item there is the temptation to not spend the money. This leads to further cost for the state down the line if people are not properly recovering from illness.

There are always unintended consequences of these things.

Free meals means better nutrition even for "rich kids".

@craignicol @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
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craignicol

@raymierussell @realtegan I used to work with someone who did modelling to help NHS trusts in England to save money and the biggest thing they could do (it wasn't even close) was to keep people out of A&E. If you invest in prevention, it keeps people away from the expensive choke points.

I'm sure the same is true for other benefits. Keeping families housed and fed, assisted support to enter the workplace, etc. Keeping them away from courts and mental health services.

@Raymond Russell @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

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in reply to Carolyn

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Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

@CStamp
Exactly.

And by giving everyone a free lunch and breakfast, it removes the stigma of "being too poor" to pay for lunch. That removes a tiny portion of the humiliation that comes from living in poverty.

Then there's the families who cannot figure out how to apply for the free lunch program - or don't have time because the parent(s) work extra jobs. Those children don't go hungry if every child is fed.

We need to stop gate-keeping who needs help, and just help people.

@Carolyn

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Stephen Dioxide

@CStamp @realtegan
β€œCivil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.”
― Adam Smith

"The primary function of government is to protect the minority of the opulent from the majority of the poor."
- James Madison

@Carolyn @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

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Adrian Riskin

@Steve @CStamp @realtegan
And at least Madison thought this was a feature rather than a bug. In fact Madison's obsessive worry that in a democracy the majority of the poor might vote in laws that would protect them from capitalist predation, which after all is how he and his founding buddies made their dough, is why we have a republic rather than a democracy. He lays it all out in the open in Federalist 10.

billofrightsinstitute.org/prim…

Federalist No. 10 by James Madison | Majority Rule v Minority Rights

Federalist No.10 written by James Madison defended the form of republican government proposed by the Constitution.
National Leader in Civic Education Resources | Bill of Rights Institute
@Carolyn @Stephen Dioxide @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
in reply to Thad

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Bruce Mirken

@Thad @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan This whole discussion is so silly because any perceived problem is easily solved in 2 simple steps: 1) Feed ALL the kids. 2) Tax the rich so they pay their fair share of the program's total cost. Was that hard?
@Carolyn @Thad @George B @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

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Passenger

@jennifer @gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan
Also, the best way to make sure that something is widely popular among all classes is to make it available to everyone without means-testing, and one of the best ways to make something into a mark of shame among among poor people and a target of derision among less poor people is to means-test it.
@Carolyn @George B @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸 @Jennifer

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in reply to George B

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The Animal and the Machine

@gbargoud @CStamp @realtegan
Harm is primary to racism.

Why help 99 white poor people and one Black person when you can harm the Black person. Racists believe the Black person must not be able to stand. It’s pure irrational fear of a 180 flip and them being enslaved. They mirror how they are onto how others will be.

All other instances, including on all whites, stem from this being set as a mental model of how to operate.

The model isn’t challenged on the poor because it would led to the same question on the colour, and remember, harm to Blacks IS the point. The route of poverty in the US is racism.

It is all, what magicians would call, β€˜misdirection’.

As long as the core philosophy is on splitting society and not building the American Dream, you will get questions on freeloading.

Side note. There are no freeloaders to basic human rights.

We the people.

@Carolyn @George B @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
in reply to Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

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Humphrey Archer

@realtegan

Trying to carve out a "special" class who are entitled to school lunch has always been a foolish approach that just adds layers of expensive policing that INEVITABLY wind up costing more than they save, and preventing some number of eligible students from getting serviced.

Unfortunately, some people are always more focused on the remote or insignificant risk of cheaters, than they are on make sure that they are servicing those who need it

Just make it free to all

@mekkaokereke

@mekka okereke @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
in reply to Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

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Paul_IPv6

@realtegan @blainecross
it's one of the cheapest and most humane ways to raise graduation rates & test scores, lower absenteeism.

if someone is all bent about "someone taking advantage of free school meals", that tells me more about that person than about problems with the program.

@Blaine Cross @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
in reply to Paul_IPv6

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canevecchio

@paul_ipv6 @realtegan @blainecross Is there really anything more important on earth than feeding and nurturing our children? Should anyone really care about what it costs? Aren't they all our children, and therefore our future as a species? Never mind whether they're genetically related to us or not, are they not still ours in the most fundamental sense imaginable? What is wrong with these people who only see in them something to constrain, deprive and punish?
@Paul_IPv6 @Blaine Cross @Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸
in reply to bipolaron

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Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag β›ˆ 🐸

@bipolaron
I grew up in the 1970s, and if you were poor you brought a sack lunch or went hungry. Buying a lunch was a luxury. Then they offered free lunch for some kids, but the process to get it was nasty to go through, and as I recall there was a voucher the child had to use - visible to all other students so they knew the kid was getting a free lunch. The teasing was enough to make some kids go hungry, because children are cruel.

When everyone gets it, it's so much better.

@bipolaron

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in reply to Helen "Good Morning!" Caton πŸ‡¬πŸ‡§

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mekka okereke

@HRCH

Long answer:

Some of the first Americans were Puritans. They brought with them some of the most toxic viewpoints, and they are still present in US society:

1) Prosperity gospel: God blesses good people that work hard. Having money is a blessing! So if I'm rich? That means that God loves me! I can prove how much God loves me by getting richer!

2) Means Testing: "lazy" or "unworthy" people should get nothing. So if you are poor? That means that you are lazy, and that God hates you! You did this to yourself! 🀑

The reality, of course is that rich early Americans were rich because they owned things: land, slaves, mills, etc. And early poor Americans were poor because they didn't own things and worked for greedy people that did own things. Or in the case of Black people, because they were owned.

But it's beyond race: in this dichotomy of deserving and undeserving, an Irish American sharecropper or slave overseer, was lazy, undeserving and seeking a handout, but an English American land owner was hard working.
πŸ™‚πŸ™ƒ

Gangs of New York opening scene:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqPqUcNK…

Irish people and Catholics eventually "earned their whiteness" in the US, and adopted many of the Puritan ideals that were ones used against them.

Gangs of New York | Bill the Butchers First Scene | Gang Showdown

Liam Neeson and Daniel Day-Lewis. Directed by Martin Scorsese.
3 Cut Films (YouTube)
@Helen "Good Morning!" Caton πŸ‡¬πŸ‡§
in reply to mekka okereke

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mekka okereke

@HRCH

What does this have to do with free childcare or free school? Or more accurately, public childcare or public school?

Well, in the United States, public schools are funded by local taxes of the community that the school is in. This creates a situation where the best schools are near the most expensive houses, not where the most students are, or where the best schools are needed.

This has a concentrating effect, where people buy expensive houses near good schools, which drives up the price of houses, which produces more money for the school district, which makes the schools better, which drives up the price of houses... ♾️

This is a free school in a rich part of the US:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm4dy25V…

This is a free school in a poor part of the US:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=nD3P-utK…

A homeless Black woman wanted her child to go to school, so she had to list an address. She listed her child's babysitter's address. This qualified her child to go to a good school. But the school district found out about it. What do you think they did?

a) Let the child keep going to the school
b) Force the child to transfer to a school in a district with her homeless shelter
c) charge the mother with a felony, convict her, giving her a five year prison sentence, and causing her to lose custody of her child

damemagazine.com/2017/03/20/wh…

Why Are Black Parents Being Punished for Trying to Educate Their Kids? | Dame Magazine

The law has come down on another Black mother for wanting the best education for her children. Kiarre Harris, a single mother in Buffalo, NewYork, was arrested last month after removing her two children from the failing elementary school that they we…
Stacey Patton (Dame Magazine)
@Helen "Good Morning!" Caton πŸ‡¬πŸ‡§
in reply to mekka okereke

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Helen "Good Morning!" Caton πŸ‡¬πŸ‡§

Forgive me, I take things literally. I assumed the debate was about funding a fire service.

Thank you for sharing the tragedy of the situation, which is cruel and horrific.

I genuinely cannot understand why people don't want to share. Don't want others to have the same good things in life that they have or had. Or want to deny or take away these things from others.

You don't know me, but I wish all of this for you and yours. And I wish you peace and joy, today and always.

in reply to mekka okereke

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Γ“scar Morales VivΓ³

aside from everything else I read in the replies (and mostly agree with).

If there’s something that rich people as a class are into is making sure everyone else understands that they are rich.

In other words almost all of those who are rich enough won’t be caught dead sending their kid to the commoners’ child care when they can send them to the Very Expensive Childcare Where They Only Mingle With Other Rich Kids.

in reply to mekka okereke

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George B

Also the 3s program here requires applying for a list of schools and seeing which one you match with. We only applied to the 2 closest to us (we like the private one we're in enough to just stay in it instead if we need to commute for school) but some people will apply to a lot of them to get a seat.

This means that kids end up in the same class as others from different backgrounds which is a huge benefit that is not available in regular private daycares/preschools.

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youknowthatonepersonwithaface

I wonder if they'll ever contextualize the region though, you look at Walland, TN, folks look rich as hell until you take out Blackberry Farms.

Like, yea, Eric Prince owns property up that way, but my cousin Randy who sells lumber to subsidize his disability does to, and the district schools can still only afford to teach abstinenve sex-ed taught by a guy who claims to be a "born again virgin"

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myrmepropagandist

Some of NYC's poorest people WORK in the wealthiest neighborhoods. And although there is income segregation in NYC it's never absolute. There are poor people in every single neighborhood.

But also the best way to ensure a public service is high quality is to make it so everyone uses it. Things just "for the poor" tend to slowly become terrible.

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myrmepropagandist

Now why exactly is a $34 burger incompatible with having excellent public services your pay for with taxes?

Schools aren't charity operations, this isn't a band-aid for the desperate. It's something people should look from other cities at and say "I wish my city had that"

Drop of your kids and trust they are safe AND learning while you are at work. Pick them up and have a $34 burger AND avocado toast. Let's live well together.

This must scare them to death.

This entry was edited (2 days ago)
in reply to myrmepropagandist

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Camille Winds Down

@futurebird
Medicare for ALL
Housing for ALL
Healthcare for ALL
Education for ALL
Food for ALL
Pricey Burgers (from time to time) for ALL

Progressive taxation and regulations that ensure good living wages are the right ways to deal with income inequality NOT withholding services from people because they are "too rich" to get them.

@mekkaokereke

@myrmepropagandist @mekka okereke

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James Widman

well, yeah; if the servant class isn't constantly under the kind of pressure that makes them submit to the authority of extreme wealth, then, from the perspective of the ruling class, extreme wealth loses some of its value (even if their purchasing power goes up).

(fwiw, a quick googling of "${nyt_board_member} net worth" suggests they're not billionaires, but like 8 to 9 figures, so still pretty comfortable. it seems as if it's just a rag by the rich, for the rich.)

This entry was edited (2 days ago)
in reply to mekka okereke

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Camille Winds Down

New York Times gets it wrong sooooo much. It's wild. They have such panic about America having any of the amenities people around the world just take for granted.

If you aren't bleeding to pay an arm and a leg for basic services, are you *really* living? Has some unnamed wealthy person been positively *fleeced* to ensure someone else gets a dentist appointment?

NYT on the hard-hitting news. Sheesh

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DavidM_yeg

β€œuniversal child care”

It’s right there in the name … β€œuniversal”
If you exclude rich kids it isn’t universal.

But once you’ve accepted that some kids aren’t part of β€œuniversal” then you have accepted the supremacist frame: that some kids count and others don’t.

It’s a classic bait and switch. Next comes the excuses to exclude poor kids, or black kids, or indian kids, or muslim kids, or whoever they don’t see truly human.

#HumanRights #Supremacy

#humanrights #supremacy

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