in reply to Evan Prodromou

@malte

Ever have a glass of wine?

Alcohol is toxic to every human tissue, but we put in place precautions... We rigorously regulate the production, distribution, sale, and consumption of it. We have medical interventions for its abuse. We attach social stigma to those who purposefully abuse it.

We do ZERO of those things to social media, despite knowing that, especially in terms of mental health it can be as bad or worse for especially young people than alcohol and or drug abuse.....

So, yeah. Sometimes people choose to do things that are "bad" for them, but they can make informed decisions.

Social Media has suffered few if any of the oversights, restrictions, repercussions, as other harmful activities.

It's well past time we started.

in reply to Evan Prodromou

ah. I now see where the support for the privacy invasion legislation is coming from.

the idea that children should sit silent, isolated, and inert, until their 18th birthday whereupon they magically gain all the skills needed to live well is what's unhealthy for children.

just let them live their lives with unconditional agency, love, and support. I guarantee you it is better. sometimes they might go online! you are just going to have to find a way to deal with that, team.

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Renata 🇨🇦🐈

I removed myself from The Big Ones and people *don't talk to me anymore*

They don't know how to talk to me. They can't find me if it's not by looking it up on some social network.

Don't you think that's a little weird? If I delete my account here, I'm going to basically disappear.

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to Evan Prodromou

through high school both my parents worked and i was largely left on my own in the house with my 3 siblings. between the age of 13-17 i was in a lot of public discord servers and met a wide variety of people, who shared my extremely crude and childish sense of humor at that time. it was quite nice having human company, even if it was from all over the world and not down the street.
however i also had one too many experiences of being DM'd "i did it again :333" or "reply or ill really jump" when I was the ripe age of 14 sipping on root beer and eating chips.

and apparently im not alone in that experience of becoming an uncertified discord therapist because i know so many people who experienced a similar deal, or otherwise wound up in petty internet drama with The Most Insufferable People Ever.

The internet is such an unbelievably varied space that its impossible to really quantify in one number or sentence how healthy it is. It'll be a spin at the roulette table on what you find any given day on any given platform, and with every conceivable human concept available with a bash of a keyboard, anyone can access anything.

I believe that knowledge should not be constrained and social networks often are the gateway to the most up to date conversations on current events and evolving knowledge, with an equal part of rot.

in reply to Evan Prodromou

(1/2) @evan I've always opposed sanitizing the world for kids.
They *will* get online & find stuff. I did (just w/BBS's!).

I *am* sure so-called “social media” *is* toxic for kids. Heck:it's toxic for most adults.
But age verification laws'll put 16 yr olds into business of making fake ids for 10 yr olds.
My mother read Tipper Gore's book & Destroyed all my #punk tapes.
Lars brought me his to school to listen to free.
& the censorship made me an activist for life. So, maybe upsides?🤷
#EvanPoll

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to Evan Prodromou

Yes, but mostly because creating safe digital spaces for minors is difficult. You need crack moderation teams and robust digital safety plans, as well as actually having their best interests at heart. Very difficult goal to align with those of for-profit companies, extremely difficult to implement by independent groups due to lack of funding. Not to mention the tension that anonymity protects but many protective measures require at least the identification that a user is a minor.
in reply to Evan Prodromou

I know. I pride myself on Freedom of speech.

Dialogue is the only way we can all get along, whether we agree with each other or not. Sadly, some people don't deserve that level of respect.

I've put up with a lot of shit flung at me over the years. I'm happy to be insulted to a certain degree, be denigrated, have my words twisted, and often be lied about, but there comes a time when enough is enough, and I have to hit the Mute button.

They have to be extremely bad for me to block them.

in reply to Evan Prodromou

I struggled between yes, but and no, but.

Inherently, being part of a social group can be important esp. when you're the type who doesn't mix normally (me in my youth.. 0 friends but my ZX Spectrum.. would have killed for something like Mastodon back then).

But the way they're run by corporations with no thought for the damage their algorithms can do.. just more eyeballs means more profit.. makes them a toxic place. We need to fix that.

in reply to Evan Prodromou

For me, it’s a “No, but…”. I grew up using BBS (only for a short time) and then Usenet. There have always been toxic elements there, and certainly not everything was age-appropriate. So it’s also a reflection of society. And today, especially on commercial networks, that reflection of society is the attention economy and the greed for data.

Everyone has a responsibility to ensure that these networks are safe for all users. Children should not simply be shielded from them, but rather taught how to use these media. They will find a way to participate anyway.

in reply to Evan Prodromou

the problem is "social media" algos. they intentionally fuck with us for profit. bad for everyone but kids are less prepared for manipulation and their brains are still changing. beyond the personal, taken together, they also have a societal impact.

I think staying connected to people they know IRL via "social networking" tools is great for minors. and I think a purely reverse chronological feed without ads is a better way to get news for everyone.

I hope we can make the distinction.

in reply to Evan Prodromou

Thanks to everyone for your replies here.

I think social network platforms are good for people. Connecting with people you care about, meeting new people, expressing your ideas and your creativity, sharing your daily life, learning about the vast diversity of human experience -- these are all positive things that social networking platforms can bring us.

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in reply to Evan Prodromou

I don't think minors are excepted from this. I think that children benefit from seeing and being seen and learning how to represent the self. Teens are even more in need of exploring culture and subculture, connecting with people well outside their immediate circle who share their interests or problems, making friends, having romances.

roland reshared this.

in reply to Evan Prodromou

I also don't think we've found the perfect balance between the privacy settings we need to protect kids from predators of all kinds, and the wide social horizons needed to let kids and especially teens discover diverse kinds of people and find out who they really are. There might not be a one-size-fits-all set of rules that works for every culture, every family, and every kid.
in reply to Evan Prodromou

I realize that this is my answer to everything, but: I think there's value in experimenting with different options, providing a full menu of different platforms, and letting parents, kids and teens make their own choices about what works for them.

Federation lets users choose the parameters that work for them -- who can find you, who can follow, who can message, what appears in the feed -- and still stay connected to the wider social web. Your rules of engagement shouldn't cut you off.

This entry was edited (1 week ago)
in reply to Evan Prodromou

I recognize that there's harm in social network platforms. Time you spend behind a screen is time that you're not engaging with people directly in real life, or out in the world exploring, or exercising, or being in nature. People can be terrible to one another, and it can crush your feelings for days. But I also think that it's possible, if we do it right, to have the positives of self-expression, learning and connection outweigh the negatives of distraction and conflict.
in reply to Evan Prodromou

I think I am with you on the "no, but...", and I can see why others are not. If someone's "social network" experience has *only* happened in the time frame since Facebook and shortly thereafter Twitter turned to monetization-motivated algorithms, then their ability to conceive of different is limited. There is no distinction in most minds between "social network" and "social MEDIA" and treating those as synonymous limits understanding.
in reply to Evan Prodromou

One big thing I've noticed with my kids vs. even a few years before that, is the social network/pressure never turns off for some of them.

Social things (good and bad, but more often bad) catch fire much faster and stay burning for much longer, when there's no mandated community-wide break between 3:30pm and 8:30am the next morning (or the weekend).

Of course we still talked to some of our friends after school when we were that age, but for them it's nearly-everyone, nearly all the time.

in reply to Renata 🇨🇦🐈

@renata I agree 100% and this does not exclude the fediverse.
For me it is very ambivalent. I enjoy it being able to discuss with people like you or @evan - this only happens with social media (including forums or mailing lists). But at the same time there is that FOMO and the feeling that I need to perform and post smart answers.
Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Renata 🇨🇦🐈

@kleisli A lot of people complain about social anxiety and loneliness, and I truly believe that the over reliance on social networks to be basically the only source of connection is the driving force behind that

You had both the ability to completely disconnect and also had to make an effort to go out and find whatever new things you wanted, things humans have done for centures.

In 10 years, we lost that. Of course our minds feel weird.

in reply to Renata 🇨🇦🐈

@renata I think we got used to that circle we didn't have before social media. Even with social media platforms usually there is a hand full of closer friends we meet, call or write regularly. And before social media there was the "work circle" maybe a sports club. But there wasn't that huge fuzzy circle of "facebook friends". @evan
in reply to Evan Prodromou

One of those extremely loaded questions where I'd normally say "Technically yes but there's A LOT more nuance" to most people, but "No and I hope someone spits in your coffee, good day sir" to think tanks and lobby groups.

Shortest pitch I can throw? On one hand, we NEED spaces for youth to interact with, well, anyone. On the other, profit-minded, rage-baiting, shorthand media (or even just... shorthand media like here, albeit better) isn't the right tool IMO.