@carbon_compound there's really no need to paint just some nations with a broad brush. Stupidity is an ubiquitous human trait.

There's reasons why people in Eastern Germany, Hungary and Slovakia voted for hard right parties. But i feel like it is currently very visible demonstrated that hard right parties lead down a path that fails even harder on these reasons...

@jztusk

i don't think anything we could ever say will get them to vote

so therefore we will indeed shame them, so anyone else listening who is not a lazy entitled lump does vote

Well, that's definitely a strategy, and you've thought about what you think will be the most effective, and I've got no evidence that it isn't, so go ahead I guess (not that you need my permission).

Me, I'm going to go ahead with trying to show people it's in their own best interests to vote. Maybe between the two of us we'll cover all the bases? :shrug:

@jztusk

so let's say you take one of these typical assholes whining loudly about how they won't vote until {X} happens

say everyone bends over backwards and makes {X} happen

they still won't vote. they will invent a new reason not to

this is their identity. making dramatic displays of their "moral superiority" to justify their indolence, entitlement, and alienation

of course, morality without action isn't morality at all, it's just ego masturbation

they're losers. literally: they lose

Yeah, the ones with a ransom list can just drift away for all I care - they will never accomplish anything, and I'm done wasting my time on them.

But there are still lots of other people who don't vote for other reasons: they're busy, they haven't got the habit, they don't think they can make a difference, despair, etc. And I do not want us speaking shorthand and saying "fuck non-voters" to push any of those away...

the vote is controlled by the states

i am not registering my disagreement with you i am registering my disgust with you

if you say the midterms aren't real, people have no reason to vote, therefore MAGA wins

is this what you want?

are you trying to help trump on purpose?

i don't think so

but *you are* helping trump with such ignorant cynical and cowardly words

do not say these lies about the midterms ever again

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Wow, easy, we're on the same side, we both want MAGA dead and buried.

What I'm trying to say is that these are different times, things have changed. Both Putin and Agent Orange see Orbán as their friend, and none of those three give a rat's ass about law or democracy.

Putin and Orbán have been playing dirty for years, there is no reason to assume the Tantrum Toddler is any different. Especially because he already promised that "you won't have to vote again, it's all arranged".

More recently he suggested the midterms were unnecessary, the Republicans should cancel them, and the state (i.e. he and his henchmen) should take over the elections in blue states. And what about the "find me enough votes" and seizing Georgia ballots?

I don't trust Krasnov, and I'm afraid that if the US people do, they will be lulled into accepting a red victory in November.

But if his popularity keeps free falling like it does now, he'll understand he can't get away with stealing the elections, so he'll cancel them completely.

A state of emergency would do, right? So I expect him to start a war in Iran. No, wait, not a war but a special military operation. If it goes well enough to boost his popularity, that's enough. And if not, he uses it to cancel (no, wait: postpone) the elections.

You got to understand that he and Putin are the same creepy, untrustworthy bastards. Only difference is that Putin has a brain of his own.

Waiting to kick this orange menace out because "the midterms will do that" seems fatally naive...

@hans

don't worry about it hans, i'm a hothead, i yell at everyone

in venezuela they still vote, and there the system in genuinely fucked

(not in any way trying to justify what the USA did in venezuela, just saying that venezuela's voting is rigged to high hell)

you have to vote. always. period

i'm just angry at any hint of a rationale that says voting is pointless

it's never pointless

the people of venezuela know. americans need to grow the same backbone as venezuelans

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩

don't worry about it hans, i'm a hothead, i yell at everyone

I know you do, I'm not worried 😉

And yes, you vote, every time always, that's a democratic duty. The people have no power if they don't control the power. You don't take a taxi without telling the driver where you want to go. If you do that, you look pretty silly when you complain you didn't end up where you wanted to go.

But this taxi driver isn't interested in where you want to go to, he sets his own destination. Are you going to wait until he stops, or do you pull the handbrake and drag him from behind the wheel?

nah

it's more like a bus

we don't get the perfect location we want, we always only get somewhere nearby in approximation

and if we don't take the bus, because we want the bus to stop exactly in front of our house, then we're arrogant fools who aren't going anywhere

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Hehehe, you might have stolen that analogy from me 😉

But true, you'll never end up exactly where you want to go, but this bus driver is drunk and has already hit several cars. Do you remain silent and hope you reach your destination in one piece? Or do you force him to stop, and hold him down till the police arrive?

This isn't a "what do you think of my driving?" situation, this is "oh shit, this asshole is going to get all of us killed!"

See the damage he's already done in one year: a trade war with the rest of the world (illegally, says the SC), destroyed the US reputation among its allies, stopped all aid to Ukraine while cozying up to Putin, sent his thugs out to harass, arrest, deport and even kill people, goes after newspapers, universities and political opponents, openly accepted bribes and refuses to release the Epstein files.

Just to name a few things, the list is much longer then that. You have a convicted felon at the helm, one who has a long history of breaking the law, lying, cheating, stealing and being a pig.

There's nothing he won't do to stay in power, and the longer he is allowed to stay in power, the more he digs himself in.

It's easy to elect a dictator, it's hard to get rid of him once he's in control.

we elected biden in 2020

hungary might get rid of orban in april

is your message to the usa and hungary to give up, it's not worth even trying?

i don't think it is

but you have to see that that is the implication of your argument

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩

is your message to the usa and hungary to give up, it's not worth even trying?

No, exactly the opposite! I hope you step it up and kick the orange SoB on the street now, and not wait for elections.

And I know those words imply radical actions. I hate violence, but sometimes it's the lesser evil...

@hans

all we have to do is vote

and you want blood in the streets?

what the fuck?

hans you're completely nuts on this topic

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 You're allowing him the time to dig himself in, by quietly waiting for what you expect will happen in more than half a year from now. Call me nuts, but I'm afraid you don't see the urgency of the matter.

The Gleichschaltung is in full swing, ICE is completely above the law, Congress is being bypassed, Orange has more than once promised to meddle with elections and he's about to start a war with Iran.

Play by the book at your own peril. And that of the rest of the world. You'll make future generations wonder why "they didn't stop him in time".

(With "you" I don't mean you personally, but the US people as a whole, of course)

@hans

hans i'm not a peacenik. if it comes to violence it comes to violence

my problem with you is tactical ineptitude

so listen, and learn:

before the vote, no one knows what someone is shooting for. and so they're isolated, and they're put down

after the vote, if the vote is denied, and people start shooting, then everyone knows why, and they all join in

do you see hans?

if you go to violence you better know damn well what the fuck you're doing. and you don't

think hans. or you're dead

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Ok, we are probably not going to agree on this.

You want to wait for a good reason before unleashing hell on the nazis, I think that that will give them enough time to prepare.

Just as Orange calls the war he started in Iran a "preemptive strike", I believe the US people should preemptively remove MAGA from power: to remove a threat before it can do its harm.

I believe you seriously underestimate the urgency for eliminating this very rapidly growing cancer, it's spreading way too fast to allow it another 8 months.

Then again, I'm not a US citizen, maybe I'm the one who underestimates factors that I'm not even aware of. And I'm not the one who would be risking his life in the revolt.

You're Dutch, right?

let me tell you of the story of a Dutchman

Marinus van der Lubbe

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinus_…

he set the Reichstag Fire. he thought like you

the response was he gave the Nazis an excuse to seize all power

"unleashing hell"

i agree. if they deny the results of the vote. before that, you get isolated attacks that Trump will use as an excuse to seize more power

do you see the problem?

violence isn't the problem. *stupid* violence is. and that's what you're proposing

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 Of course I know Van Der Lubbe, I mentioned him when Charlie Kirk was killed. I called that MAGA's Reichstag Fire moment.

But no, setting fire to a building isn't what I think should be done, and I like to think I'm not the simpleton that Van Der Lubbe was.

But let's conclude this discussion by accepting that we have a different idea of what needs to be done, and particularly about when.

Let's give a positive spin to it. I'm convinced we agree on one thing: we both hope I'm wrong 😉

@hans

i will set aside my hothead loudmouth desire to continue arguing, and yield to your noble sentiment 😁

who won the 2020 us presidential election? and who was president at the time?

thank you to everyone who showed up and voted then

you agree?

so get the fuck out of here with your cowardice and premature capitulation

vote, you spineless asshole

if fascism does destroy us democracy, it will be because of MAGA, and meek submissive fear-addled weak whiners

you CAN vote out orban

you CAN vote out trump

you CAN vote out fascism

fuck this weak whiny defeatism